Leading a Thriving Team

I'm going to thrive, I've got to do enough of those things." So, let me flip that question on his head. For people who are not thriving, they're socially withdrawn, as you've said. So, this is very common in many psychiatric and medical disorders that they're preceded by the social withdrawal. I'm just not doing great. I'm not really sure how to explain it, but I don't want to go to dinner anymore. I want to see a movie. um you know, my wife complains because I won't get out of the house. And so that slow degradation of the ability to thrive is a very strong indicator that people have some kind of disorder that should be addressed. So, so the opposite is, hey, I'm doing stuff. I'm out there. I'm having fun. I'm talking to people. I'm doing things that give me energy and turn me on. So, let me just finish the thought. If stress were bad, why would you ever work out? Yeah. Workout is physiologically stressful, right? It it's it's physiologically arousing. Stress is the wrong word. But things that we do that give us most value tend to be those things which are physiologically arousing. They're challenging. They are um unusual. There's not the same old thing. You know, think about your favorite restaurants here in Leverne. You kind of know what meals to order. You've been there a million times. But now I jet you somewhere else. You get a meeting in New York City. Oh, holy crap. You're in Manhattan. I get to have five million different choices. That's a much different experience than doing this same old same old. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So, so these these moments that we have that I've heard you describe as high value moments, what is a high value moment? So, because the brain is trying to modulate its very high energy overhead, it only expends the value to really absorb and be fully engaged in that experience when that experience creates enough value for us. So we've shown in published research that the high value moment is a big metabolic investment from this area that is the valuation network for social emotional experiences. It's high enough and long enough. Long enough is 3 minutes or longer and high enough is a a metric then this says oh this is valuable. So we've shown in published research that the answer to how to thrive is six. How can that be? So we've shown that if you have six or more of these highv value moments and well- definfined measurable highv value moments then people are sufficiently engaged with people and experiences that they have high energy they have high mood four a day and you're kind of maintaining three or less you have depressive symptoms you have low energy you have low mood you're not really thriving and so by having a very simple numerical goal almost like 10,000 steps for physical activity I need six high value moments a and I have a piece of free software that'll help me not only track those but lean into the ones that historically over time have been most valuable to me. Okay, so let's talk about those high value moments for a minute. What makes for a highv value moment? What what has to happen for my brain to be willing to spend that energy and and say yes, this is something that that you know I value. Those high maybe moments are almost always social. I could have them by myself. Doing something creative, working out can happen. But if you add a social component, it accelerates it. Like the travel example. Um, often it's when we're doing something that uh gives us this sense of energy like we're doing something useful on the planet. So it's a serviceoriented call these uh the purpose moments. So what's my purpose on life? Eating, drinking, and talking to people. But what gives me energy? What's my avocation besides my job? What do I love doing? And so when you do those things that you love doing, which often involve other people andor service, then you tend to have these high value moments. So of the many many things we do, it's hard to track that internally. And that's why we built software that objectively captures that and gives each individual personalized advice so you can find that sense of purpose. Again, besides work and family, what do I dig? What I what turns me on? What gets me out of bed? Yeah. So, as you know, you know, like you, I do a lot of working out. I get up at 4:30, head up the mountains with friends, work out hard for 3, four hours. Oh, it's the best, man. Guys you really like spending time with doing a hard workout. Like, what's better than that? Yeah. Dig it. I'm going to keep doing that. Yeah. Sucks when it's cold and rainy. I don't care because it's really important to me. But it's the guys. It's not just the working out. It's the guys with me. Yeah. I know 100%. It's it's it's the it's what you're doing certainly matters, but it is, you know, the the purpose of the activity matters and then the relationships that underly, you know, that that activity that you're, you know, who's who's with you and what do they mean to you and all that? I can totally see where that would drive. What what else adds to kind of high value moments? Yeah, I want to follow up on the last thing you said though. Um, in the key about you said we're social creatures. We need to be around other people, but we need to invest in those relationships. So, that's what really my research has shown is that I'll have a higher value moment when I have a closer relationship with you. So, this is taking your friends to lunch, checking in on them. So, the six app uh will you can share that data a little bit with your friends. So, I can see if you're in red or green. So, hey John, you've been in the red zone for three days. My app shows me I could send you an emoji or god forbid I could call you up. Hey buddy. Yeah. Like you're not doing so well. remember that used to make that's an investment in a relationship, right? Or you've been in the green zone for 5 days. Holy crap, what you've been doing? This is a crazy week. You've had an amazing week. Tell me. Let's go grab a beer. Let's talk about that. So, I'm a big introvert. You can't tell cuz I'm talking non-stock. But what I found from my research is I've got to invest in those relationships. By the way, family important, too, right? So, if you never talk to your spouse about what you're doing, he or she's going to be, you know, isolated. You're not going to form a strong relationship. So, um, I'm trying to be less stupid over time because, you know, we're all born stupid. And part of that is doing this research on thriving, which is applying it to myself. How do I thrive selfishly, you know, just doing research for myself and it's really investing in relationships and activities that stretch you a little bit? So, that stretch, that challenge goal we sometimes say is really important. Um, so I want to go to uh Antarctica. I've been on six continents. I want to do seven. I'm trying to put a group of guys together. maybe you can join us. And like it'll be challenging. We got to get there. We got to, you know, we'll meet people, whatever. But um like that seems like a super cool, weird, fun thing to do with a group of friends that's going to be um one of those expanding experiences. So here's the bottom line. I've talked too much. When you have six or more of these high value experiences a day, you are training your brain to be more present and more emotionally open. And those are the two components that make us much more valuable to be around for other people. Right? If I'm not paying attention to you, if I'm doing nothing or if I'm I don't care about what you're interested in, I'm not a very good friend, partner, employee. And so that sixth goal is really uh inducing what we call neuroplasticity, allowing you to actually truly thrive and sustain that thriving by giving you the skills to be slightly less stupid over time like me. Okay. So let's let's that that context in in mind. Now let's pivot this to leadership because it strikes me as as leaders, right? as employers, as whether you're a church leader, a you know, a boy scout troop leader, a parent, or or you know, a business leader, you have an effect on the people around you. And and it strikes me that understanding this and trying to create an environment where we can have these kind of interactions and moments probably is going to lead to you, you know, the people you lead being more engaged. You know, in your first book, your last book, you talked about immersion, right? Being more immersed in what they do. So, so why don't we kind of walk through as a leader, where do I start? Again, think about this in as investing in that relationship, right? So, um if you as a leader are in the corner office, no one ever sees you, you're dictating like a little god in heaven, um people will follow you. But if they have $5,000 more a year, they'll go somewhere else. But if you're on the front lines, if you are creating those opportunities, if you're helping other people be successful, if you're building that strong relationship, um then people will do the most for you. So my own company, you know, we almost died during COVID. People took big salary cuts and I said, I think we can pay you when we get through this. I don't know for sure, but I want you to trust me. And I cut my salary to zero. Like I'm we're just going to live on this thing and we're going to try to ride it out. And luckily a lot of those people stayed with us and it was really really tough but I made a commitment to those individuals. So it's really that commitment and then trust right you no one's going to trust you unless you are trustworthy. You follow up on that. If I say something I've got to do something. If I somehow fail on that I've got to own that. So I think there's a lot of I'm the boss. I'm beyond um the rules don't apply to me right. So uh no the rules apply to everybody. So, I think one of the things I've always tried to do in the organizations I've been in is do the worst job first. Whatever this job is, how dirty it is or how unpleasant, I got the first shift. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's, you know, the the book leaders eat last. And there's there's been a lot of public discussion about this notion that the, you know, as an effective leader, your job is is often to lead from the front and and to do the difficult jobs. And um you know it's it's always been something that I've tried to to think about like I am the least important person in any room I'm in and I need to constantly remind myself of that. Focus on the people that are around you. What about relationship building in a business? Like what are the kinds of things that you've seen be effective as as you're studying, you know, and advising business leaders? What are the kinds of things that you're seeing be effective for business leaders in building those relationships? Yeah. First of all, physical time together. So, I think in the postcoid world of remote or hybrid work, you've got to actually see these people. So, um we're seeing a lot of businesses uh strongly suggesting three days a week at least in the office. We see a lot of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. But if you're a leader and you're showing up 5 days a week in the office, people start showing up, right? So, again, you got to eat your own dog food here, right? If you think it's important to be in the office, be in the office. If you're a remote group, do off-sites. um do this off sites and make it long, right? Let's let's do something a little bit stressful. Let's go ziplining. We're going to have a a 8 hour, 9 hour meeting about what we're doing in the business and then we're going to do something weird and fun. And so again, that stressful response physiologically arousing response is what builds relationships, right? You know, strength is built under pressure. So I do want to pressure these people. I want to put up challenge goals. So I want to think a lot about for individual employees at least direct reports giving them ways to grow personally, professionally, and spiritually. And if I'm not doing that, then I'm going to have a kind of a shell of an employee. So I said a lot there. So there's a kind of a lot to unpack. So follow let's let's dig into stress for a minute because stress has gotten a very bad name, right? It's become like, "Oh, I'm so stressed." And and you know, I hear it especially from like my my kids' generation. is like, "Oh, I have too much stress." And and it's I kind of laugh every time I hear that because it's like, "Oh, I have a biology test. I have too much stress in my life." Well, now you you need to build your your reservoir a little here, buddy. But, um, we've given stress a bad name. And and I think that you and I are both of the belief that that stress in and of itself isn't bad. It's it's frequently good. Sure. As a leader, what does that mean for an organization? It really means building those challenges. So like you I think that um the inverted pyramid I'm the least important person but I am setting strategy for my organizations and so I want to give people opportunities to perform at their best but also give them feedback. So this high feedback kind of coaching model of leadership I think is the most effective particularly for small to mediumsiz businesses. When you get very large it's a little harder to do that. So I've got to think a lot about my direct reports. what challenges they have, but also at work, but also what challenges they have in their personal lives. So, the last thing I want is someone, you know, pulling their hair out, coming to my office saying, "I got to quit because um my wife says she's got to move back to Chicago because she needs help with the Let's have that in advance." Great. We have an office in Chicago or hey, you can work remotely and come see us once a month. We'll fly you in. Let's be ahead of that curve. So, um in one of my books, I talk about what I call the whole person review. Instead of doing this stupid backward-looking annual review that everyone hates and is pretty much useless. I'm in this coaching model, let's sit down once a year and talk about where you want to grow. Where do you want to be next year personally, professionally, spiritually? So spiritually again, whatever that means for people, that could be again your purpose statement. So maybe you love sailing. You have time to sail. How often do you sail? If you love doing that and that not to me it degrades your feeling, your energy, your passion as a human being, then again you're not sustainable. So in a world in which we're at record low unemployment rates, we're below replacement fertility, immigration is going to be off the table for a while. We're running out of humans. So we should really nurture and develop these human beings who are working for us. But see that that you know you're you're betraying your personal belief that the job of a leader is to invest in people. And I think that so so often people have this mindset that like my job as a leader is to manage people. And you know you've used the word coaching repeatedly and and I think this is one of the places you and I really connect is like my job as a leader is to make you as good as you can be not not to to manage you. I think I walked on your your business today. Everyone here put their pants on. They got their work on time probably, right? You don't have to manage them. They know how to do that job. What you need to do is give them the tools to be successful. And the feedback positive and negative on doing that, right? So, want to celebrate those victories. Oh, we just landed this great contract or we finished this this project on time, whatever that is. And also privately, hey Bob, you know, we had this big milestone and you missed it. Let's talk about that. Let's make sure that doesn't happen again. Right? That's the coaching model. So for me, human resources, which is a term I really hate because they're just human beings. They're not resources. But that department should be a revenue center, not a cost center. And most businesses are seen as a cost center. H the cost of these stupid humans. No, humans are creating value and they're valuable and they're rare. Yeah. So it's it's it's almost, you know, you're as a leader, you're utilizing stress to improve them, right? and managing that the stress that you're placing upon people in the way you would manage the amount of weight you lift in the gym, right? Like I'm going to task you to make you better, but because I'm coaching and I'm watching and I'm paying attention to you and monitoring you beyond just, hey, you know, what are your numbers? I'm also going to know when I probably need to to tune it down a little bit. And that's where emotional fitness comes in. If you're getting these six or more highv value moments, you're building up that buffer, that resilience. So now I can really thrive and when I have to say pull an allnighter, I can do that, right? And I got my team around me. We're all going to be here. So I think it's really important to think about sustainability in organizations as this long-term goal where I keep my employees. Low turnover is a good sign of a good culture, right? And I'm investing in those relationships so that I know about your personal life. I know about you. I know your kids' names. I know when they have a baseball practice and you want to leave early. I'm good with all that. Long as you're hitting your milestones, I don't care because you're valuable as a human being and you're valuable as an employee. I think that probably took me 25 years to learn that it it didn't matter if you were here from precisely 9:00 to 5:00. Uh especially when you being here from 5:00 means you missed your kids play. And and it took me a long time to really appreciate that. Sometimes as a leader, I make a short-term decision that has long-term consequences. Like, this assignment needs to be done. You know, it's got to be done today, even though we're trying to get in tomorrow morning. Has to be done today. So, you you're not going to go to your kids's play. Well, your kid is the only one whose dad didn't show up. And you missed your kids play. And now you resent me. Your wife resents me. Your kid hates me. And honestly, you kind of halfass the assignment because you were mad. Anyways, when I think of the whole person review, I think that's got to include the family. How's your family doing? Is your spouse happy? Are your kids doing well? They're not. Actually, we really don't like the school district here. Okay, let's talk about how we might manage that, right? I want to keep you as an employee. You're valuable. You're important. You're not valuable, then I can let you go. Different story. Sure. But let's make sure we take that into account because I don't want to be blindsided by something I don't see coming. So, um I think it's really important again, small, medium businesses, sometimes big. um bring the family in, have an annual picnic and bring the families and thank those families and spouses for letting their spouse come work with us. What's nicer than that? Hey, sometimes you got to work long hours. Sometimes you do miss a play. Sometimes we have to do these things. I think we should include the entire family in that discussion. Yeah. You know, when I teach culturecentric leadership, one of the things I talk about is kind of Maslo for leaders, right? Like if if you're in a good place and things are great, then yeah, you're thinking about your future career and you know, advancement opportunities and where's the business going, but if you're in the process of getting divorced or you have a drug or alcohol problem and you're not sleeping or your kid has cancer, you you've moved down the Maslo triangle to the point that you're just trying to get through today. and and me trying to lead you from the top of that triangle, trying to lead you with, well, you know, if you want to have a good advancement next time, like, you don't care. And if I'm not paying attention to you, I have no idea where you are in your life and where where you're sitting in that in that relationship. Yeah. You have a an executive in residence at CGU Clement University named Jerry Stad who run a bunch of uh ran a bunch of high-tech computer companies. Jerry's a super healthy guy. So, we used to have this monthly juice with Jerry. So, you just put your name in and you grab five employees and you can sit for an hour with Jerry, ask him anything you want. Anything. That's a cool concept. Yeah. So, I don't know. Juice with John has a nice ring to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. It's a What is it? An alliteration. Yeah. Juice with John. So, all right. So, I'm trying to coach my people. I'm applying stress carefully to them and giving him some recovery time. Giving them recovery time and I'm I'm looking at how I can coach you whole person, right? I'm looking at your emotional fitness. You know, when you look at it from this model, you kind of see how the postcoid everybody works from home, nobody ever talks wasn't necessarily the best business model. like what what have you seen in the work that you've done? What have you seen? You know, because I think we're kind of at a point where we're rethinking remote work and the relationship between remote work and and listening to what you're telling me, I can see why that wouldn't work. What have you found as you've done research in this area? So, we found that emotional fitness, again, getting these six high value moments a day, um, is much more likely to occur when you're around other people, that includes work, and when you have a challenge. So we see many more highv value moments at work than at leisure. Why would that be? Isn't leisure awesome? No, but you spend most of your whole day working. You most of Americans, we love it. But you have other people and you have challenges and that's actually what your brain needs. So we need to build up this emotional fitness by having those challenges, having that social component. And then we have a sense of purpose. What am I doing this for? I got a customer. This customer needs this thing. Now we're under pressure. We got to get this thing done. So now I'm of service to other people and that also generates we've shown in published research much more cognitive effort and emotional effort to get the job done. So again I'm building up that resilience. Now again if we have this big project just like physical fitness you need recovery time you need recovery time to for emotional fitness as well. So we have a big project on Friday that was due and we made it. Oh holy crap we did it. Let's rest on Monday. The last thing I want to do is give you a giant new project. give you if you can give you a week to go home on time, get caught up in email, do those things. Think of this as recovery time. And if you modulate that kind of up and down again, you're going to build a sustainable business where you're not paying to hire, train, and lose people all the time. So, you know, these data for a professional, it's about a one-year annual salary to replace someone who has quit. I don't want to bear that cost. I'd rather work with you knowing that there will be ups and downs. And so maybe a key takeaway from this conversation is everyone's not going to be 100% perfect every day as you said cuz things happen. The kid's sick. The dog died. My wife's not happy with me. I'm going to have some down days. And as a leader, I cannot expect you to perform perfectly every day. Now, if you are missing goals consistently, we should have a conversation, right? What's happening? Do you need time off? What's what's going on? But if you miss a goal occasionally, it's going to happen. We all have bad days. So I think for me the research I've done and just working with companies for 25 years I think the leadership takeaway is tolerance. If you're a good employee, if you're a great employee, I want to give you some leeway both on what you do, some autonomy, but also understanding you'll have good days and bad days because guess what? We do too. I think that is a fantastic place for us to stop. Where can people find your research and your work? Uh the easiest way is to get the free app at your six the number six.com. The app is called six. Uh you can find me at immersion neuroscience. The website is get immersion.com. If you're listening to this, email me. I'm happy to take any questions. Anyone who's interested in what we're talking about and likes you, I'm going to talk to. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Paul. I appreciate you being here. Of course, John. Thanks.